Argentines with Armenian surnames

[praetorian]

Anatolian/Turks, it's basically the same thing today. There were movements of people between the south shore and the north shore of the Black Sea. Doesn't matter what the Anatolians called themselves then..Greek, Turks, Trojans, Whateverr. They were Anatolians. So there are connections between Anatolia and Crimea...and therefore between Turkey (and Turks) and Crimea (and Crimeans). You are just arguing semantics, but you know what I mean.

Also most of the things you say I already know and agree with obviously.
Perhaps I am not understanding what is being discussed here..really...
Explain me droop, if you may. (no sarcasm, lol)

Are you saying that yolas isn't a good example of a Turk because some of his ancestors are Crimean Turks? We do not know the impact of that on his phenotype, and like I was arguing Crimean Turks aren't that different from Anatolian Turks (including because there are ancient connections between the places).
Yolas looks Alpine/Med a common thing in Turkey if you go by Coon for example (and my eyes too, I forgot to add this back there). He isn't exceptionably fair too. Only his hair may be a little lighter, since it seems more like medium brown and not dark brown. Still, quite common there.

[tyrannos]

Turks as in modern country and ancient inhabitants are not the same thing and shouldn't be confused. Turks are a race from central Asia near Mongolia.

[praetorian]

Noboding is confusing them. When I say Turks I mean citizens of Turkey. Which is mostly in Anatolia. I am also very aware that Anatolians were Turkified, therefore they didn't change much when they became Turks.

[drooperdoo]

Praetorian,
You said that it's generally accepted that "Turkic" peoples were Oriental. (I know there's debate on even that point.) But let's suspend it for a moment and accept the common premise: that the original Turkic peoples were Mongoloid.

Yolas's ancestors came from Crimea, which is today a part of the Ukraine. There are Mongoloid elements there--and non-Mongoloid elements.

Here are Crimean Turkic Mongols:



And here's a Crimean "Turkic" Caucasoid:



From this we can infer that those people who aren't Oriental are from a pre-existing layer of civilization. Since the Cimmerians were that pre-existing layer, I attributed Yolas's very un-Mongoloid looks to them.

Cimmerians weren't related to Anatolians.

The only connection that can seriously be made between the Black Sea region and Anatolia is a pan-Hellenic connection. There were people going back-and-forth over the Black Sea--but it wasn't Turks. Turks weren't even in Anatolia at the time-period I'm talking about.

So if you see a phenotypical similarity between Crimeans and certain types in Anatolia, common sense indicates that it would have to be via the Greeks. For only the Greeks lived in both Anatolia and the Black Sea. At the time-period in question, Turks were absent from both. And even when Turkic tribes invaded both places, they were different Turkic tribes--and from radically different time periods.

So there was no constant, sustained connection on that score--but there was a sustained connection under the Greeks and later Byzantine culture. We're talking a millennia-old sustained connection from before the neolithic up to the Middle Ages, when Byzantium finally fell.

Turks are newbies in the neighborhood.

All the ethnic types were formed ages before they ever showed up.

[praetorian]

Of course...but a very important factor in the Anatolian Turks racial make up is the Greek one! So the connection is still there. That's all I am saying. Add to that the posterior Turkic migrations into both places, and then the migration of Crimean Turks into Anatolia and the connections maintains its existence.

And only some of Yolas ancestors came from Crimea. People like him are no less Turk than any other. Like you say, you just need to speak the language..and in this case live in the country too, lol.

[imaginarypallies]

tyrannos said:

Magyars were subdivision of the Turks,even in language.

no they were not, They came from a similar backround but Magyars are no more turks than Turks are Mongols or for that matter Mexicans are Italian. Magyar isn't even a Turkic language.

[imaginarypallies]

Yolas looks very Turkish in my opinion, I know a Greek kid with a simmilar look(i can send his pic in private if you want) he always jokes about how Greeks are Turkified and Turks are Greekified and about how his grandmother hates Turks.

[yolas]

Hey guys it seems the topic's got very complicated. well i dont really understand what you're discussing about but i wanna tell you this: my dad's side who are from Crimea are mostly dark blond or light/medium brown haired like me. And most of them have blue eyes. My mom's side are pure Anatolian and i got my eyes from my mom. My mom's a brunette with brown eyes. i dont know if that info helps.

[Yankel]

You ask me why I bring up the Hungarians with respect to the people of the Ukraine and Crimea, and you say, "Hungary is several countries away".

Unfortunately, lines on maps are imaginary. And when we're talking about mass human migrations over eons of time, a few hundred miles is insignificant.

I'm fairly certain that the distance between Hungary and Crimea is significant, seeing as how they don't cluster with one another. Not only that, but I'm also pretty sure that Ukranians and Hungarians are genetically distinct. Since you didn't give us any information on the map you used, it's kind of useless. Context is important.

Oddly enough, I've seen studies claiming that Hungarians actually do have Central Asian ancestry. You might want to look into it before you start making sweeping statements about their ancestry.

My only point was: you can have fully European people claiming to be Turkic--a claim based more on language than dna.

Don't you find it ironic that you criticized me for putting too much emphasis on man-made borders, yet you constantly use phrases like "fully European"?

[drooperdoo]

Yankel,
21st Century lines on maps are abstract, unreal--subject to change on a whim.
My calling people "fully European" has no geographical connotation. I meant it in a racial sense, not the geographical sense.
As science has so richly proven, race isn't a phony, made-up proposition. It's objective--and based on dna differences between groups.

By "fully European" I merely meant "Caucasoid," as opposed to a Mongoloid from China.

There are objective scientifically-valid differences between the two groups.

And my linking together of Ukrainians and Hungarians didn't have much to do with their own inherent similarity--just the fact that, at some point, both were "fully European," or, forgive me: fully Caucasoid--and that, being within the same relative area they were going to have a generic similarity . . . .like an Italian and a Portuguese. They're separated by hundreds of miles. But because they're subject to similar processes and similar proto-Europid stock [at some point], there's going to be more of a similarity between them than between, say, a Welshman and a Pole.

Being only a few hundred miles apart is not like being several thousand miles apart.

There are going to be generic similairities.

That was my only point--so far as that was concerned.

And besides: Let's consider your resistance to my original statement--that Yolas might have similar dna to a Ukrainian. Look at the Crimea. It's literally connected to the Ukraine. In fact, it's politically a part of the Ukraine.

The populations of those connected regions are probably as similar as between a German and a Dutchman, a Canadian and an American.

They're right next to each other--hence almost certainly drawn from the same original source.

The only difference was that Ukrainians maintained their language and culture, and Crimean "Turks" had a foreign language imposed on them. But the base populations would almost certainly be the same, if you strip away the later extra-European addition.

Perhaps I'm wrong, though. Who knows?

What's your theory? Whence came the Caucasoid substratum of the Crimean population?

You think that it didn't emerge organically with all the other Caucasoid groups in the area?

My proposition was that it did.

That Yolas is clearly Caucasoid leads me to believe that his Crimean ancestors were the Caucasoid Crimeans, not the later Mongoloid ones. And, being Caucasoid, he'd probably be similar to other Caucasoids in the region--and the closest Caucasoid group? --Ukrainians.

That's why I made the statement.

Let's settle this and make him submit to a dna test. My wager is that he'd be haplogroup R1a, like the majority of Poles and Ukrainians. R1a: the predominant haplogroup of the Scyths and--most significantly--the Cimmerians, who are the earliest-known inhabitants of the Crimea, to which they gave their name.