Where Are The WNs?

[drooperdoo]

Annie,
It's always good to remember what caused the "brutality" of which you speak--and it was random ethnic cleansing by the Muslims.

It's the same thing that happened between the two World Wars when the League of Nations carved off 15% of Germany's landmass and gave it to surrounding nations as the spoils of war. Everyone talks about Hitler's ethnic cleansing, but what's repressed is the fact that--after World War I--there was massive "ethnic cleansing" of Germans who lived on land given to create a Polish state.
Pilsudski sought to "Polonize" these historically German provinces and villages and tens of thousands were slaughtered.

THAT'S why Hitler was greeted as a liberator when he took the land back.

Everybody talks about the phenomenon of his being greeted with cheers, but our history professors won't say why exactly that was--and they gloss over the documented ethnic cleansing of Germans after World War I.

Karma--every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Germany's later acts were a conditioned response to what had FIRST been done to them.

Likewise in Lebanon with the Christian militia. It was not an action, but a RE-action to what the Muslims were doing on a far larger scale.

* Footnote: That's a staple of propaganda--presenting one's side's violence without placing it into the context of previous violence by the opposing side. It makes the people who the media has targeted look like they're acting in a void--hence being irrational, psychotic . . . when in fact they aren't. But it's done all the time. Just turn on the TV, and see it play out every day.

[Funk Monk]

Yikes. Eleven people.

Three more were killed actually, but they were Sunnis, so they weren't depicted. Might sound bizarre, but that's how it is over there.

On the Muslims taking the power in Lebanon (Shias actually), the Christians can blame themselves for emigrating and having too few children, the Shias have always been poor, therefore they didn't emigrate, and had a lot of children to sustain themselves. So blaming the Shias for wanting more power is pointless, they are the largest minority, maybe even the majority.

On the civil war, the Christians were afraid to lose their power, they were the ones who started killing Palestinians and Muslims at random , after unknown gunmen killed some Maronite leaders (they knew they were demographically doomed already then), which lead to the Sunnis/Druze/Palestinians banding together against them.

[drooperdoo]

Funk,
You're starting to sound like some sort of Muslim Lebanese apologist--some sort of guy whose Dad has two wives or something.

[Funk Monk]

Wouldn't be too far from the truth, heh!

Anyhow, it should be clear that I'm pro-Shia when it comes to the war, who were more like a "third party" at the time, and didn't really step into character until Israel invaded in 82. They fought the Israelis and Americans while the other Lebanese were busy killing each other. You gotta respect that!

On the Christians, I can understand their motives.

I was never keen on any Sunni Arabs though. Seems like they always just want to exterminate all people who aren't like them.

[lusitania]

Wikipedia said:

No official census has been taken since 1932, reflecting the political sensitivity in Lebanon over confessional (i.e. religious) balance.[18] It is estimated that about 40% are Christians (mostly Maronites, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Melkite Greek Catholics), 35% are Shia Muslims, 21% are Sunni Muslims and 5% are Druze [19]. A small minority of Jews live in central Beirut, Byblos, and Bhamdoun. Lebanon has a population of Kurds (also known as Mhallami or Mardinli), estimated to be between 75,000 and 100,000 and considered to be part of the Sunni population.[20]

According to Wikipedia the Muslims are in the majority (already knew that) and the Shia Muslims alone are almost as big as all the Christian denominations in Lebanon.

[imaginarypallies]

wadaad said:

Lusitania what you dont seem to understand is that Israel, inspite its Jewishness and inspite the almost expectant anti-semitism of Europeans/Westerners....That Israel IS a Western nation. While Lebanon, inspite of its substantial christian population, or inspite of the fact that the swarthier, 'groid influenced folk are more like Palestinian refugees (like theyre sooo different :rolleyes:) That Lebanese is part of the Arab sphere...thats the Orient...the anti-west.

Im not seeing it this way, but most Westerners, and particularly hawkish neo-cons see the world as this way. Race/religion plays little part in it.

as a person whos actually been there and will move there,I must say this isn't true Israel is Neither truly Eastern nor Truly Western. It's cuisine and culture however are something "Eastern Mediterranean" it resembles Cyprus in alot of ways, combined with the fact that most integrated Israelis(ie not russian new comers from 1998 who live only amongst themselves in haifa and speak worse Hebrew than me) are of Oriental and Mediterranean origin, and that even Ashkenazim (except for Newcomers and Elite) are Heavily Sephardicized culturally, I would say it's not unlike say turkey. You should go there wadad it really isn't that bad, Remember the Egyptian Arab from old Dodona that actually liked it (although not its govt ) it certainly isn't a European country in the middle of Asia like some make it out to be. Culturally it's very "eastern" people assume that the European-Jews that founded it where very European in culture forgeting that even in Syria Jews dressed like this and that prior to massive assimilation Jews where very culturally "Jewish" much like Hassidim still are.

[Jack]

drooperdoo said:

Look at Lebanese-Christians from the same period: When Jews were being lynched [in the 1920s in Georgia] and later during the Civil Rights movement in the South, not a single Lebanese was singled out for anything.

Name one Jewish person (besides Leo Frank) who was literally lynched in the South between 1776 and 2007. Remember that "Jews" is plural. Who are the "Jews" who were lynched in Georgia in the 1920's? Leo and Frank?

[drooperdoo]

Jack,
I had Leo Frank in mind when I wrote that. Great eye!

Nevertheless, you sound pretty accusatory in your comments . . . kind of naively implying that Leo Frank was an isolated incident. As if he were the old Jew ever lynched. What you're forgetting is that, regardless of blacks, even whites were lynched by mobs--usually rapists and murderers, etc.

So if even whites weren't exempt, what on Earth makes you think that an unpopular group like Jews were???

Aside from Leo Frank, I'm aware of the case of S.A. Bierfield who was hanged by the KKK in Franklin,Tennessee in 1868; there were two other cases of American Jews lynched in the 1890s.

There are doubtless more that I'm not even aware of.

According to this website, a Jew named Joseph Lowenheim barely escaped a lynching in 1866 by the Klan: www.templenashville.org/_new_site/3_beit_tefillah/cemetery/highlights_history_temple_cemetery.htm

It has to be remembered that--especially in the South--the KKK harassed Jews [as well as blacks]. Harassment that led to the famous deaths of Jewish Civil Rights workers in the 1960s--their names were Goodman and Shwerner, if I remember correctly.

[Jack]

drooperdoo said:

Jack,
I had Leo Frank in mind when I wrote that. Great eye!

Nevertheless, you sound pretty accusatory in your comments . . . kind of naively implying that Leo Frank was an isolated incident. As if he were the old Jew ever lynched. What you're forgetting is that, regardless of blacks, even whites were lynched by mobs--usually rapists and murderers, etc.

So if even whites weren't exempt, what on Earth makes you think Jews were???

Aside from Leo Frank, I'm aware of a case of a double-lynching of a Negro and a Jew in Tennessee in 1868; there were two other cases of American Jews lynched in the 1890s.

It has to be remembered that--especially in the South--the KKK harassed Jews [as well as blacks]. Harassment that led to the famous deaths of Jewish Civil Rights workers in the 1960s--their names were Goodman and Shwerner, if I remember correctly.

Goodman and Schwerner were shot to death. Leo Frank was actually lynched. Can you name one other Jewish person who was murdered by bigots in the South since 1776? There was no comparison between the lives of Blacks and Jews in the South (not limited to the antebellum era). There was very little anti-Jewish sentiment in the South before the 1900s. Benjamin Judah and other Jewish men served in the CSA government during the Civil War, for instance. Also, the Ku Klux Klan is not synonomous with the entire region. In fact, the group has been ostracized and repudiated by most residents of Dixie for years.

[drooperdoo]

Jack, I modified my post--I guess while you were typing. So you didn't see the modified version. Read it: You asked if I could name a single Jew lynched other than Leo Frank, and I returned with S.A. Bierfield in Franklin, Tennessee at the hands of the Klan.

In 1866 Joseph Lowenheim barely escaped the same fate--according to this link: www.templenashville.org/_new_site/3_beit_tefillah/cemetery/highlights_history_temple_cemetery.htm

And there are others. I can remember off the top of my head two other Jews hanged in the 1890s, though their names presently escape me.

Do some Googling.

(You'll discover that Jews weren't exempt from lynchings--along with blacks, poor whites and criminals. It wasn't just a "black phenomenon".)

[Jack]

drooperdoo said:

Jack, I modified my post--I guess while you were typing. So you didn't see the modified version. Read it: You asked if I could name a single Jew lynched other than Leo Frank, and I returned with S.A. Bierfield in Franklin, Tennessee at the hands of the Klan.

In 1866 Joseph Lowenheim barely escaped the same fate--according to this link: www.templenashville.org/_new_site/3_beit_tefillah/cemetery/highlights_history_temple_cemetery.htm

And there are others. I can remember off the top of my head two other Jews hanged in the 1890s, though their names presently escape me.

Do some Googling.

(You'll discover that Jews weren't exempt from lynchings--along with blacks, poor whites and criminals. It wasn't just a "black phenomenon".)

I didn't say that Jewish people were exempt. My point was that it wasn't common to lynch them. I asked you to name two people besides Frank in another post, but I deleted it after Anodyne told me that it wasn't in keeping with forum protocol. IOW, I started a thread addressed to you. A historian from The Goldring/Woldenberg Institute Of Southern Jewish Life claimed that, "there is one lynching of a Jewish person, Leo Frank, on record in the South, in Atlanta in 1915." My main point remains that your comment about "Jews" being lynched in Georgia in the 1920s and later was misleading.

Sourced ISJL Web Site:
www.msje.org/media/article_remote_communities.htm

[drooperdoo]

Jack,
Thanks for pointing out an error in my wording. I said "Jews lynched in the 1920s in Georgia," but I ought to have said: "Jews were lynched in the South, one of whom--Leo Frank--was lynched in Georgia." Then I should have added that, another--S.A. Bierfield--was lynched in Franklin, Tennessee, and two more (that I know of) were lynched in the 1890s. Doubtless there are others.

In any case, this pattern was merely "modernized" in the 1960s Civil Rights movement, when--rather than lynch them--they were shot, as in the case of Goodman and Schwerner.

* Footnote: Your point that Jews were rarely lynched is a good one, but belied by the fact that Jews were a tiny percentage of the population. So, of course, proportionally, there would have been fewer Jews lynched than, say, negroes. But the fact that they were lynched at all in instructive--because it shows that, like negroes, they were singled out, targeted . . . something that the Lebanese-Christian community never was, historically. And there are no records of Lebanese-Americans being lynched or singled out by hate-groups like the KKK--whereas Jews [for a variety of different reasons] had a very different experience.
That was my sole point--lest we depart from it.

P.S.--You're right, though, about another thing: The South had some of America's oldest Jewish communities--hence Sephardic-Jewish communities. And they weren't treated intolerably. Antisemitism didn't have its highest flare up in the U.S. until the 1890s, when massive waves of Polish and Russian Jews entered America for the first time. Before then, only tiny communities of Sepahrdic Jews lived in America--Jews from Spain, Portugal and Spain's former colony, the Netherlands. It was a tiny community compared to what was to happen later in the 1890s. But this community--because it was so small--was less threatening, and they largely lived in peace with their host-population. Nevertheless, they were occasionally dogged by distrust, too. Check out this link about Ulysses S. Grant's war against the Jewish merchants who he felt kept undermining the war effort: www.rense.com/general63/waron.htm

[Jack]

drooperdoo said:

Jack,
Thanks for pointing out an error in my wording. I said "Jews lynched in the 1920s in Georgia," but I ought to have said: "Jews were lynched in the South, one of whom--Leo Frank--was lynched in Georgia." Then I should have added that, another--S.A. Bierfield--was lynched in Franklin, Tennessee, and two more (that I know of) were lynched in the 1890s. Doubtless there are others.

In any case, this pattern was merely "modernized" in the 1960s Civil Rights movement, when--rather than lynch them--they were shot, as in the case of Goodman and Schwerner.

* Footnote: Your point that Jews were rarely lynched is a good one, but belied by the fact that Jews were a tiny percentage of the population. So, of course, proportionally, there would have been fewer Jews lynched than, say, negroes. But the fact that they were lynched at all in instructive--because it shows that, like negroes, they were singled out, targeted . . . something that the Lebanese-Christian community never was, historically. And there are no records of Lebanese-Americans being lynched or singled out by hate-groups like the KKK--whereas Jews [for a variety of different reasons] had a very different experience.
That was my sole point--lest we depart from it.

P.S.--You're right, though, about another thing: The South had some of America's oldest Jewish communities--hence Sephardic-Jewish communities. And they weren't treated intolerably. Antisemitism didn't have its highest flare up in the U.S. until the 1890s, when massive waves of Polish and Russian Jews entered America for the first time. Before then, only tiny communities of Sepahrdic Jews lived in America--Jews from Spain, Portugal and Spain's former colony, the Netherlands. It was a tiny community compared to what was to happen later in the 1890s. But this community--because it was so small--was less threatening, and they largely lived in peace with their host-population. Nevertheless, they were occasionally dogged by distrust, too. Check out this link about Ulysses S. Grant's war against the Jewish merchants who he felt kept undermining the war effort: www.rense.com/general63/waron.htm

See, that's just it. I disagree with your basic premise that Jewish people were a special target of hatred and violence like Black people were. You claimed that this so-called pattern was modernized during the events portrayed in "Mississippi Burning". There was no pattern to modernize. Jewish people were treated well in the South. There were no official actions against Jewish people that remotely compared to the official actions against Black people. Three members of the Confederate government were Jewish, for Heaven's sake. It's also likely that Bierfield was targeted more for his politics than for his religion. He was a staunch Republican. Frank was lynched because he allegedly raped and murdered a girl, although anti-Jewish sentiment played a part among certain people involved in that case. He wasn't killed because everyone felt like hanging a random Jew that day. Jewish people were almost never lynched, and it's misleading to portray them like they were singled out for that kind of treatment by the society in which they lived. BTW, I'm familiar with Grant's infamous order against Jewish people. I'm not familiar with any similar orders issued by Lee.

[Jack]

caucasoidintifada said:

They consider me "inferior" but I look a lot more Aryan than they do. What a fuckin joke! A bunch of trailer trash rednecks spouting how superior they are when they can't get a job that pays more than Mc Donald's! Yeeerrrr not whitee bla bla bla

To whom are you referring? If you're referring to Southern people, I advise you to buy a dictionary and look up the definition of "irony". Why would anyone consider you to be inferior BTW? You sound so educated and non-judgmental.

[drooperdoo]

Jack,

You're ignoring what I previously wrote: that there were two very distinct waves of Jews into the South--the early Sephardic communities, and the much later Eastern European communities.
It was from the old Sephardic community that Jefferson Davis picked his Jewish cabinet members. It's an oversimplification. But the older Jews had surnames like Ben-Judah, Cohen, Pardo, Solis, Vidal, etc. The newer Jews who showed up in the 1890s were your Steins, Bergs, Lipschitz's, and so forth.

Two totally different communities. And you're kind of lumping them in together--to the mortification of the older Jewish community.

I saw a documentary about the Jews of the South--the original Jews, and how they hated to the new generation of obnoxious New York Jews who were coming into the South and stirring up trouble for them. Because you're right: On the whole, the tiny Sephardic Jewish community who had been in America since the 1700s was mortified when the liberal new generation of Polish and Russian Jews came down to "give Jews a bad name" and alienate them from the host-population.

The Klan's real flare-up against Jews happened with the second wave of Jews in the 1880s and '90s.

But even before then, the original Jews weren't wholly exempt. They were just smaller, quieter, less political--so they drew proportionally less attention.

But even then--before the Russian and Polish Jews showed up in America--Southern Jews enjoyed a delicate balance.

Remember: the Klan was an equal-opportunity hater. They harassed more poor whites than they did blacks. Read "The Gentleman from Indiana," by Booth Tarkington. It was published in 1900. Tarkington is as white and blue-blood as they come and he was nearly killed by the Klan, because he stood up to them.

In "To Kill A Mockingbird," Harper Lee also writes about poor Sam Green who was a Jewish grocer, and who was harassed by a mob of Klan-idiots in the middle of the night. He pointed out that he had sold them the very sheets they were wearing, and, embarrassed, they turned around and slumped back home.

As the older Jewish community would have pointed out, these instances took place AFTER the liberal Jews came in and aliented the older community. Like Leo Frank. That happened AFTER the second wave Jewish immigration.

But it's significant that the KKK was launched only after the Civil War, and right out of the box they lynched S.A. Bierfield and attacked Joseph Lowenheim.

So that implies that, from the start, the Jews were on watch.

* Footnote: Southern author Gore Vidal is descended from the famous Gore aristocracy on his mother's side, true; but he's also descended from the older Sephardic-Jewish community (on his dad's). "Vidal," his surname, is from Spain. His dad's family--after hundreds of years--forgot that they were even Jewish at all. At some point, they put on that they were Italian Gentiles. But Vidal was curious because "Vitale" is the Italian version of his name; Vidal is the Spanish. So he did some genealogical research and discovered that, yes: His dad's family has zero connection to Italy. They were from Spain. Vidal and Vitale are the Latin for "life". Jews, who assimilated, often changed their Hebrew names to their Latin equalivents. Hebrew for "life" is "Chaim" or "Haim". So, distantly, perhaps Gore Vidal is related to former child star Corey Haim, lol
But this is just mentioned to illustrate what I was telling you earlier: The original Jewish community in America was from Spain, Portugal and Spain's former colony the Netherlands. So they tended to have Spanish and Portuguese surnames--like Vidal, Pardo, Sassoon, Azaria--as well as the classical Hebrew surnames as Ben-Judah, Cohen, Levy, etc.
Not a Schwartz or Lipschitz among them.