Where in Africa does Africa start?

[sayadon]

rigaud said:

drooperdoo said:

Cameo,
I can only speak for myself when I say this, but: I wasn't personally attacking YOU. In fact, I didn't have you in mind at all when I was making my comments. I was complaining about other people and pseudo-intellectuals who go about spouting stupidities.

Seriously, though--none of that was directed at you.

Honest!

(It was a digression, as you yourself pointed out.)

Its all good, I was just making it kown that racialist constructs like "Mediterranean Caucasoid North Africa", "Black Negrid Africa" Nordic North Europe" "Mediterranean South Europe", Arabid this Meditreannid" that, Ethiopioid this, paleonegrid that, are all worthless bankrupt approaches to studying peoples from a biological, anthropological and historical point of view. They are not need to understand anything about history and culture and are bankrupt as biological terms, its only when they're use that we have problems, distortions and controversy.

Yes, I agree. Populations should be studied culturally and ethno-linguistically. I don't see how all the "oid" terms you listed are relevant to history or culture.

[Mike the Jedi]

All they do is describe the way people look. Really doesn't have anything to do with history or culture.

[Cameo]

mike said:

All they do is describe the way people look. Really doesn't have anything to do with history or culture.

For you apparently they mean much more than a physical description, you use them as templat for which people should claim or focus on specific parts of Africa, otherwise you would have had the problem with that West African looking bogus pharaoh that was posted by Menk. The way how people look has no bearing on what civilizations they should "claim" and or worry more about, the same with genetics, having a certain haplogroup and or lineage doesn't entitle or exclude a person from focusing on it or being interested in it.

[Mike the Jedi]

Why do you care about Africa at all? Would you be as likely to care if you were Chinese? I doubt it. Would you be as likely to care if you were Bavarian? No, you care because you are black. And blacks come from Africa. Do you really think you'd care as much as you do if you weren't brought into this world as an African-American? I doubt you'd give a damn if you were anything but.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's simple common sense. One might even call it a survival of ancestor worship. You're going to be interested in people who look somewhat like you. This is natural. Perhaps foolish, but very predictable. Everyone does this. European-descended people are naturally going to be interested in the history of their ancestral homelands. They're going to feel more of a connection to lands of their ethnic origin. Just as I'm interested in Greece and feel a connection to it, even though I've never been there. Is this a logical fallacy? Maybe yes, but if it is, it's common to all humans. It's part of the human condition to be proud of things one's ancestors did. Might not make any sense, but people have been doing this forever.

And this is the basis for everything I've said before about why it makes no sense for West Africans to be more interested in Egypt than Mali. In actuality, it makes little sense to claim either one, but if it DID make sense, if one WERE to play by the hypothetical rules of this aforementioned human tendency to ancestor worship or pride that I just mentioned, then I don't see the contradiction in my reasoning.

I'm not the one who thinks claiming the accomplishments of past civilizations is justified. But there are people out there who do think so. They want to claim Egypt for the black race, for example. They're not going to care about whether or not it's right to do so, because that's not how they think. The only way to shut them up is to tell them that even if it were a black civilization, it was thousands of miles away from the civilizations in which their ancestors lived and thus it wouldn't give them any sort of racial legitimacy anyway, which is exactly what these Negrocentrist types are searching for. They put an inordinate focus on Egypt because deep down they don't think the cultures of their "homelands" are impressive enough to compete with "white" cultures like Greece or Rome.

[Cameo]

mike said:

Why do you care about Africa at all? It's very simple: because you're black. If you weren't black I doubt you'd give a damn about Africa or obsess over it as much as you do. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's simple common sense. You're going to be interested in people who look somewhat like you. This is natural. Perhaps foolish, but very predictable.

i like to study Africa as well as put it in its proper place and context in history. Its something I take an interest in, it has nothing to do with me being black, I like alot of other things too, like religion and preaching but they have nothing to do with my color, and it damn sure has nothing to do with people looking like me, thats straight up ridiculous. The way ho people look has no bearing on anything.

By the way, I never said that I agree about claiming racial accomplishments of past cultures, either. I'm simply looking at it it through the mindset of those people who do feel such claims are justified.

The notion of "Caucasoid", "Negroid" and or "Mongoloid" history and accomplishemnts is not justified and anyone with racialist motives is wrong from the start and its a pitiful mindset if you need to look at history through the eyes to gain confidence and or pride. What some one else 6,000 years ago has nothing directly to do with anyone today who tries to make claims to it.

And that in the vein of this mindset, it would make no sense for West African descended people to feel more of a kinship with Egypt than WA.

What do you mean WA descended? I am, but bear in mind I'm an Afro-American nearly 300 years removed from the continent, why should I feel more or less any kinship to WA or any part of Africa for that matter? And why should a West African Hausa or Songhai feel more kinship to an Ashanti from Ghana or a Mende from Sierra Leone when culturally they're as different from each other and they're all from ancient Egypt? You just can't people together because thy come from a certain region and expect them to feel more kinship.

But that's exactly what I see most of these Negrocentrists doing.

this is BS, who and what "Negrocentrists" are doing what? Don't attack mythological people because I am an AA and I sure as hell don't see millions upon millions of AAs claiming Egypt out of some lack of knowledge about their own culture, thats a bunch or friggin BS and I'm tired of it, you either name who's claiming what or cease making attacks on nameless people.

They put an inordinate focus on Egypt because deep down they don't think the cultures of their "homelands" are impressive enough.

Thats BS and I already gave an explanation for this above. It seems more like *YOU* want to tell people what they *SHOULD* claim and focus on, thats what I see. Eurocentrists have been claiming everything in Africa, even Nubia, Aksum, and anything found of value and or civilized in West Africa and central Africa through the mythological invention of Hamites. No need to go into what it is again because you know, but you're raising hell getting about a few people saying things about Egypt just because they don't focus on what you think they should focus on? Thats a ridiculous double standard, I don't see you complaining about the millions of whites who claim all of Europe under the banner of "Western civilization" but when it comes to Africa, its all of the sudden important to separate people based on region of origin and what the look like and to keep those Negroes and "Negrocentrists" in their places, ridiculous!

[Mike the Jedi]

You take a huge interest in Africa WHY? Could it be perhaps because you're BLACK? Gasp! Oh, no he didn't! Sorry, but this is a no-brainer. It's funny that you don't think you're blackness has anything to do with your interest in Africa. Nobody here is going to buy that. You'd have an easier time selling us your opinions on homosexuals and Muslims.

As far as the "double standard" goes, as Salah Al-Din said in Kingdom of Heaven, "I am NOT those men." Don't blame me for what a bunch of misguided Euros said about Africa decades ago. I didn't write that stuff, and I certainly don't believe in it like you think I do. I also don't believe stuff written by whiny Negroes with obvious axes to grind. Oh, boo-hoo, the white man claimed Egypt! I'll show him by doing the exact same thing! Pfft, go ahead, Sir Guy. I don't piss and moan about all the Eurocentrist stuff on Africa from yesteryears because it's already been done. It would be redundant and unnecessary. Plus it has no real force in academia today, unlike Afrocentrism.

I'm not going to bother replying to any of the other usual crap you write because you talk in circles any way. I've made my point. And so did Menk earlier. That point is simply this: there is a natural tendency in humans to connect themselves with their ancestors. And with that past glories. I didn't say this was right. But this is what people do.

[Cameo]

Well I made my my point, if a few whiny "Negrocentrists" get you riled up thats your problem, just don't impress upon people what you think they ought to focus on. i see in your last post you basically glossed over the frivolous claims of whites but seem intent on attacking a few whiny Negroes. You really make a great case for being consistent. All I see here and even on HBV and the old dodona is a bunch of whiny Euros whiny about "Afrocentrists" and Negrocentrists when it comes to Egypt but I think perhaps Egypt was so good is the reason why such people are trying their best to exclude blacks from it as well as taking it out of Africa and making it Middle eastern and or European.

[Mike the Jedi]

I already explained to you that's because comprehensive refutations of the Eurocentrist opinion on Africa have already been done to death. Nordicism also has no following outside Stormfront. Now it's just amusing. Can the same be said of books with taglines like "Black Athena"? I'm sure you're going to see more of those lying around in college campuses than you will "the Races of Europe." Not that Black Athena is a bad book. I've only read excerpts myself, and I must say if they are indicative of the entire book, then the title is very misleading. It seems to be mostly about Afro-Asiatic influences on western civilization. But Bernal gave it a racial spin to make it more provocative. Very sophomoric and unprofessional to equate Afro-Asiatic with "black."

Anyway, the Egyptian question for me is funny. Before educating myself on race and stuff, I always thought Egyptians looked like "Middle Easterners." I never thought of them in terms of white or black, but rather brown. This is how most Americans these days see the Egyptians, I think. They laugh at those old movies with white people playing Egyptians, but they might laugh even harder if they saw Eddie Murphy as Pharaoh. Simply because in the typical non-race enthusiast's mind, Egyptians were just a kind of Arab. Not white, not black, but sand nigga.

[sayadon]

mike said:

Simply because in the typical non-race enthusiast's mind, Egyptians were just a kind of Arab. Not white, not black, but sand nigga.

Hell yeah!

[Mike the Jedi]

lol... I mean, isn't that it in a nutshell? I always imagined the Egyptians to look like you, Sayadon.

[sayadon]

mike said:

lol... I mean, isn't that it in a nutshell? I always imagined the Egyptians to look like you, Sayadon.

In a nutshell, yes. I think by the late kingdom AE's looked a lot like modern E's. Some were dark enough to be Nubian, some were light enough to be Greek, most were sand niggas. I am no expert though, and my life won't come crumbling down if this isn't true!

I am not gratified by the accomplishments of AE's because they have nothing to do with today. I do, however, identify with AE's because my family brought me up with their stories and some of their habits, traditions, and feasts, etc... I also live in equilibrium with my Arab and Muslim identity (I see no contradictions). This is why sometimes Afrocentrism gets to me, I feel like they are trying to deny part of my identity. But I honestly understand and tolerate it as a reaction to long periods of Eurocentrism. I just hope it starts to taper off soon.

[oldpretan]

rigaud said:

And why should a West African Hausa or Songhai feel more kinship to an Ashanti from Ghana or a Mende from Sierra Leone when culturally they're as different from each other and they're all from ancient Egypt? You just can't people together because thy come from a certain region and expect them to feel more kinship.

For the same reason that I, a Brit, find I have a greater affinity with Euros from the NW littoral than I do with those further east & inland, although having said that I'm sure I could have a drink and a chat with a fellow smartarse from anywhere in the world.

[Anodyne]

I edited my post:

You contradict yourself. If you say that pheontypes are not a legitimate way to break up people into zones, and then say, you don't equate black with Africa, then that means you agree that there are groups that are not black living in Africa, and therefore you must be accepting of "zones" where people's skin color differs.

Before I made an error. I typed "If you disagree that phenotypes aren't a legitimate way to break up people into zones..."

May God have mercy on my soul.

Moving on...

[Cameo]

caucasoidintifada said:

All of Africa is Africa however not all is the same race.

The injection of race is of no importance, so why worry about so called "race"? What relevance does it have in the study of the history, culture and interactions between Africans amongst themselves? It has none.

[Cameo]

ayndostoy said:

I edited my post:

You contradict yourself. If you say that pheontypes are not a legitimate way to break up people into zones, and then say, you don't equate black with Africa, then that means you agree that there are groups that are not black living in Africa, and therefore you must be accepting of "zones" where people's skin color differs.

Before I made an error. I typed "If you disagree that phenotypes aren't a legitimate way to break up people into zones..."

May God have mercy on my soul.

Moving on...

Look I am not contradicting myself and my statement that I made no equation of black=Africa was a response to the accusation that I did. I don't believe in the western racialist constructs of "Black Negroid" Africa and "White Mediterranean Caucasoid" North Africa", you know, the traditional racialist constructs that are applied to Africa in a divisive way. Take it or leave or interpret it anyway you see fit, but I'm not about argue over some insignificant small thing.